Comments on: Belgian Grand Prix - Penalty - Lets Stop The Madness… http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/ Jamming F1 Style... Wed, 07 Jan 2009 04:07:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.2 By: Keith Collantine http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5405 Keith Collantine Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:52:20 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5405 "Kimi had every right to hold the line, he was on the inside for that chicane." This is disputable on two counts: 1) Raikkonen was not on the inside for the left-hand part of the chicane 2) Where is it written in the rules that Raikkonen's position going into that corner gives him the right to pick a line that forces a competitor off the track? "Please note (coz some people just dont get it) it was not for whether Lewis allowed Kimi back the position he gained by cutting the corner. It has got nothing to do with if Lewis let Kimi thru or not." I'm afraid it does. There are many examples in recent F1 history of drivers who gained an advantage by cutting a corner, who then ceded a position gained back to their rivals, and did not get punished. Off the top of my head I remember it happened with Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya at Monza in 2004. My point is this: Hamilton, as you have said, had no alternative but to cut the corner. Having done that he did everything that might reasonably have been expected of him to ensure no advantage was gained. McLaren even asked the FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting - twice - whether he was satisfied Hamilton had yielded the position back properly. Whiting said he was happy. What we have here is a woeful piece of inconsistency from the FIA which McLaren are victims of. It needs to be cleared up as quickly as possible because at the moment it's impossible to say for sure how drivers should handle similar situations in the future. “Kimi had every right to hold the line, he was on the inside for that chicane.”
This is disputable on two counts:
1) Raikkonen was not on the inside for the left-hand part of the chicane
2) Where is it written in the rules that Raikkonen’s position going into that corner gives him the right to pick a line that forces a competitor off the track?

“Please note (coz some people just dont get it) it was not for whether Lewis allowed Kimi back the position he gained by cutting the corner. It has got nothing to do with if Lewis let Kimi thru or not.”
I’m afraid it does. There are many examples in recent F1 history of drivers who gained an advantage by cutting a corner, who then ceded a position gained back to their rivals, and did not get punished. Off the top of my head I remember it happened with Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya at Monza in 2004.

My point is this: Hamilton, as you have said, had no alternative but to cut the corner. Having done that he did everything that might reasonably have been expected of him to ensure no advantage was gained. McLaren even asked the FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting - twice - whether he was satisfied Hamilton had yielded the position back properly. Whiting said he was happy.

What we have here is a woeful piece of inconsistency from the FIA which McLaren are victims of. It needs to be cleared up as quickly as possible because at the moment it’s impossible to say for sure how drivers should handle similar situations in the future.

]]> By: Haas http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5406 Haas Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:12:51 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5406 @Keith <i>There are many examples in recent F1 history of drivers who gained an advantage by cutting a corner, who then ceded a position gained back to their rivals, and did not get punished. Off the top of my head I remember it happened with Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya at Monza in 2004.</i> I agree that not conceding a position that is taken by cutting a chicane a driver is liable to be penalised. My argument is that Lewis wasnt penalized coz he did not return the position back. He was penalized coz he by cutting the chicane had gained an advantage that allowed him to pull of the overtaking maneuver at the very next corner. Even by reducing his speed by 6 Kmph(as stated by Mc Laren) he was still in a relatively advantageous position compared to the position he would have been in case he hadnt cut the chicane. Personally the safest thing for him to do was to get off the throttle atleast immediately after the chicane... which he did not do, he made sure the momentum was just enough to let Kimi past and got right back on the power. I guess in the end the argument made by Trulli is the best advocate for my opinion. Ps: I agree that the Kimi and holding the line statement might have been inaccurate... thanks for correcting me :) @Keith

There are many examples in recent F1 history of drivers who gained an advantage by cutting a corner, who then ceded a position gained back to their rivals, and did not get punished. Off the top of my head I remember it happened with Michael Schumacher and Juan Pablo Montoya at Monza in 2004.

I agree that not conceding a position that is taken by cutting a chicane a driver is liable to be penalised. My argument is that Lewis wasnt penalized coz he did not return the position back.

He was penalized coz he by cutting the chicane had gained an advantage that allowed him to pull of the overtaking maneuver at the very next corner.

Even by reducing his speed by 6 Kmph(as stated by Mc Laren) he was still in a relatively advantageous position compared to the position he would have been in case he hadnt cut the chicane.

Personally the safest thing for him to do was to get off the throttle atleast immediately after the chicane… which he did not do, he made sure the momentum was just enough to let Kimi past and got right back on the power.

I guess in the end the argument made by Trulli is the best advocate for my opinion.

Ps: I agree that the Kimi and holding the line statement might have been inaccurate… thanks for correcting me :)

]]> By: MAK http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5407 MAK Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:34:28 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5407 when i saw it live i was under the impression that he choose to straight line the chicane instead of slowing down, after seeing the this now im certain he did so. whether the harsh or not is another question, but he did deserve a penalty for thats all i have to say. Keith, "Where is it written in the rules that Raikkonen’s position going into that corner gives him the right to pick a line that forces a competitor off the track?" you sound bitter hami fan, you are forgetting that the guy ahead can change the direction once to defend his position, so basically what we refer to as "closing the gate" happens, and thats what happend here. "My point is this: Hamilton, as you have said, had no alternative but to cut the corner. Having done that he did everything that might reasonably have been expected of him to ensure no advantage was gained. McLaren even asked the FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting - twice - whether he was satisfied Hamilton had yielded the position back properly. Whiting said he was happy." Keith you are overlooking a simple fact that he could have backed off as is done by most drivers in the similar scenario. its quite similar to what happened with heikki really, in heikki case he choose not skip the corner, probably he couldn't but the point is he made choose of road which faster than slowing down, had it been a gravel trap around the corner im pretty sure he would have done it. when i saw it live i was under the impression that he choose to straight line the chicane instead of slowing down, after seeing the this now im certain he did so. whether the harsh or not is another question, but he did deserve a penalty for thats all i have to say.

Keith,

“Where is it written in the rules that Raikkonen’s position going into that corner gives him the right to pick a line that forces a competitor off the track?”

you sound bitter hami fan, you are forgetting that the guy ahead can change the direction once to defend his position, so basically what we refer to as “closing the gate” happens, and thats what happend here.

“My point is this: Hamilton, as you have said, had no alternative but to cut the corner. Having done that he did everything that might reasonably have been expected of him to ensure no advantage was gained. McLaren even asked the FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting - twice - whether he was satisfied Hamilton had yielded the position back properly. Whiting said he was happy.”

Keith you are overlooking a simple fact that he could have backed off as is done by most drivers in the similar scenario. its quite similar to what happened with heikki really, in heikki case he choose not skip the corner, probably he couldn’t but the point is he made choose of road which faster than slowing down, had it been a gravel trap around the corner im pretty sure he would have done it.

]]> By: MAK http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5408 MAK Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:55:39 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5408 "when i saw it live i was under the impression that he choose to straight line the chicane instead of slowing down, after seeing the this now im certain he did so. whether the harsh or not is another question, but he did deserve a penalty for thats all i have to say." here im refering to this video, http://www.youtube.com/v/dWNN5W_B-Zk&rel=1&fs=1&ap=%2526fmt%3D18 “when i saw it live i was under the impression that he choose to straight line the chicane instead of slowing down, after seeing the this now im certain he did so. whether the harsh or not is another question, but he did deserve a penalty for thats all i have to say.”

here im refering to this video,

http://www.youtube.com/v/dWNN5W_B-Zk&rel=1&fs=1&ap=%2526fmt%3D18

]]> By: Tom M http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5410 Tom M Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:25:01 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5410 The problem is that "gained an advantage" has often been taken to mean "gainied a position" in the past (and like Keith says, there's plenty of precedent). It is now clear that this is not the case (indeed it was clear at Suzuka 2005, again there's precedent). We simply need to take this opportunity to clarify exactly what is meant by "gained an advantage". It must be put in clearer terms. The problem is that “gained an advantage” has often been taken to mean “gainied a position” in the past (and like Keith says, there’s plenty of precedent). It is now clear that this is not the case (indeed it was clear at Suzuka 2005, again there’s precedent).

We simply need to take this opportunity to clarify exactly what is meant by “gained an advantage”. It must be put in clearer terms.

]]> By: MAK http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5411 MAK Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:55:45 +0000 http://f1jam.com/2008/09/10/belgian-grand-prix-penalty-lets-stop-the-madness/#comment-5411 @Tom M Agreed that we need take oppurtunity to define "when you gain an advantage" and how relinquish the advantage. but i think prevention should also be a goal, i think all the chicane must not have a have hard run-off area, basically the places where a hard run-off area can laid should be moderated and controlled. @Tom M

Agreed that we need take oppurtunity to define “when you gain an advantage” and how relinquish the advantage.

but i think prevention should also be a goal, i think all the chicane must not have a have hard run-off area, basically the places where a hard run-off area can laid should be moderated and controlled.

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